This will probably piss off almost everyone reading this, but...

[marnen]

While reading some critical evaluations of whether the Third Wave experiment happened as described, I happened on a page arguing that there were no gas chambers in Nazi death camps. This is not a piece of Holocaust denial -- the writer of the article seems to think that most of the other details of the Holocaust are too well documented to be in any question -- but it does appear to be a well-reasoned, thoughtful job. If anyone can find holes in his arguments, I'd be interested to know what they are.

---

Update, about 13 hours later: While I'm not withdrawing my post, I'm beginning to think I may have posted too soon. The article appears to have been less well thought out than I originally thought. That's what comes from posting on impulse in the wee hours of the morning...

Comments

[marnen.livejournal.com]

That's a pity.

[jcgbigler.livejournal.com]

His arguments suffer from the same thing he accuses the "anti-revisionists" of doing--he gives extensive evidence supporting one specific claim, and then says "the same is true for everything else I've claimed. I just don't have the time/energy/money to do exhaustive research." There may or may not be something to his arguments, but the only way we'll be able to draw any kind of reasonable conclusion is after someone has actually gathered the time/energy/money and does the exhaustive research.

[marnen.livejournal.com]

Yes, I noticed a bit of that -- in fact, he admits as much. However, he makes the point that the research he's already done is probably sufficient to prove his main point. To my mind, the curious lack of documentary evidence (if he's right about that) is especially telling. So are the bogus references in a main source.

[jcgbigler.livejournal.com]

With a little more digging, I found a site that has a little more info substantiating the existence of the gas chambers:
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html

IMO, this page does a decent job of refuting the argument that "the room tourists are shown at Auchwitz was the gas chamber that was used," and the claim that the room would have to have been specially constructed or hermetically sealed.

However, this does not address the question of corroborating photographic or documentary evidence of the gassings themselves.

[skitten.livejournal.com]

fancy meeting you here ;)
I find it odd that so much time is used analyzing whether it's actually happened or not....
maybe most humans can't comprehend that we're capable of doing such enormous acts of cruelty?

[marnen.livejournal.com]

Probably. Without such overwhelming documentary and eyewitness evidence, the whole damn thing would stretch credulity to the breaking point. It's a good thing for posterity that the Nazis mostly kept excellent records.

[marnen.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks! I'll look at that.

[skitten.livejournal.com]

I would curious how much of his opinion is based on scientific analysis....

[skitten.livejournal.com]

I'm scratching my head.... how exactly did he prove that the gas chamber isn't a gas chamber & really... what difference does that make? there were a large number of dead bodies obviously dead at their hands.... what exactly is his point? to prove that nothing happened?

[marnen.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think that's his point. I think he's just pointing out that one particular claim may not have as much behind it as is commonly thought.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

I have to wonder if it matters HOW they were killed... Millions of people were killed for no reason other than they believed something that wasn't EXACTLY the same as the people in power. You know, because killing all the people who think diffferently is such a good way to prove your ideas are right... (Note: It doesn't. It only proves that your idea is the only one left.)

People are cruel evil monsters a lot of the time. There's not a single decade in history where someone wasn't using their power (with various bullshit justifications) to torture, maim, mutilate, kill, opress or otherwise harm their fellow human beings. Using and abusing power over other people somehow helps them cope with the fact that they're mortal, I guess.

If people didn't also have the potential to be good, I'd have killed myself out of shame years ago.

[marnen.livejournal.com]

Millions of people were killed for no reason other than they believed something that wasn't EXACTLY the same as the people in power.

Nobody's disputing that -- at least, I'm not. But neither do I think that it is good to believe a falsehood. In other words: the Nazis did enough bad things that are well documented. It serves no purpose to attribute things to them that they did not do.

Did the Nazis build gas chambers? I'm not taking a side on that question at the moment. But I think that, like any other claim of that sort, it deserves careful investigation. The memory of the Nazis' victims would not be honored by anything less.

[dwarven-brewer.livejournal.com]

First off he loses points with his introductory paragraph. How can anyone expect to be taken on the merit of their arguments when that is how they choose to address their audience.

Point Number 1: His first link states there are three doors into the gas chamber and that these doors differ greatly from a modern gas chamber (pictures provided). Clearly, he is unfamiliar with how airlocks can & do work. The modern gas chamber does not require multiple entry doors in addition to the HVAC as it is equipped with a superior sealing mechanism.

Point Number 2: He does not provide any documentation (links or cites) to make his point valid or refutable without private research. This statement is invalid based solely on that.

Point Number 3: See point Number 2 above.

Point Number 4: There are a number of books about WW2 & the Holocaust. Here he cites a single text and says "look, look THIS guy screwed up!" "See errors!". I don't know about you, but, when I argued something in any of my papers I had multiple resources for primary points. I won't even touch his 'UFO argument'. Point fails on lack of verifiable evidence.

Point Number 5: See next point. The argument is very similar for this one.

Point Number 6: Here the author states "we have document X" "Document X does not mention gassing so it didn't happen." This point fails based on his sheer sloth. He does not provide adequate information or citation to even investigate these assertions. Point fails on lack of verifiable evidence. The author isn't done yet he goes on to state that everyone who died in the camps was gassed! In the face of evidence to the contrary (mass graves, shootings, etc.).

I hate reading this type of crap, but, to know an enemy we must understand them. If we do not, I feel they can never truly be beaten.

[bunnyjadwiga.livejournal.com]

A. He's arguing against a straw man: "six million Jews were gassed." No reliable source claims that, because Jews and other victims of Nazi atrocities were documentably killed in other ways as well.

B. He also makes the claim that since the room is not hermetically sealed, it couldn't be effectively be a gas chamber. This is logical nonsense. If you breathe too much poisonous gas, it'll kill you. A great enough concentration of gas in a place where people are will kill them. If you keep them breathing air with high concentrations of carbon monoxide long enough, it'll kill them; so, if you posted armed guards outside a room filled with people and ran an furnace exhaust into it, it would kill them too-- consider carbon monoxide poisoning in houses, which are not sealed either. The area does not have to be hermetically sealed as long as there is enough gas. The hermetic sealing in modern gas chambers has an additional purpose-- keeping other people from breathing the gas.

No, I don't know if the door to the crematorium was blocked up. If one used enough gas, it wouldn't matter.

[11th-letter.livejournal.com]

Honestly? I can find a good many holes in his arguments.
But my main objection is...why is he arguing it at all? The pursuit of knowledge and all that. But my observation is people who mount these arguments are intending to show that the Holocaust was not so very holocaustal as folks think, and I do not think that is worthy of any scholar.

[marnen.livejournal.com]

Yes, the pursuit of knowledge. Or at least that's why I'm interested in it. It seems that the nature of the Holocaust has become an article of faith, and something of a shibboleth. Either you believe it wholesale or you disbelieve it wholesale, it seems. And that's just plain sloppy scholarship.

As a human being, and as a Jew, I have no desire to belittle the impact of the Holocaust. But as a responsible thinking person, I am bound to consider evidence that comes my way with an open mind. I don't think any purpose is served by constructing sacred cows.

[curlyeric.livejournal.com]

No article of history or science should be taken on "Faith", but this is a well researched topic that has been tread upon again and again over the past 60 years by historians and scientists. The idea that there was no gassing at the big 3 death camps is an extraordinary claim; and as we know from philosophy extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and this piece provides no extraordinary evidence.

[marnen.livejournal.com]

The existence of the gas chambers is, on the face of it, also an extraordinary claim, which is why I feel that a careful evaluation of the evidence is necessary -- and as you and others pointed out, this is exactly what Lyle didn't do.

[stonetimber.livejournal.com]

This person pisses all over the memory of the many who died at Auschwitz, not all of them Jewish. They were beaten to death, shot, shocked, starved, frozen, and yes, gassed. How could any person take the stance that what happened did not, when there are too many people who confirmed that it did on their way to prison or the gallows. Whole companies were taken apart piece by piece, record-wise, so as to find out who had to be hung for indirectly killing people with their product line.

My father, as an Irish Army intelligence officer during WWII, knew the Germans were using gas, along with other methods, to rid themselves of the "Undesirables". They informed both England and America of this, yet no-one wanted to believe that anyone would do such a horrendous act. My mother's uncle Mike (forgive me, his last name escapes me at this time) was an aide to Eisenhower, whose job was to act as witness for the government, was the first American into Bergen-Belson, Berkeneau, and others. He never gave stories but always said that all of the horror stories were true.

[marnen.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, your first sentence is quite inaccurate. Careful scholarship to determine exactly what did -- and did not -- happen in the death camps is the best way to honor the memory of the Nazis' victims. (Of course, whether the article in question is careful scholarship or not is another issue.)

[stonetimber.livejournal.com]

Which part?? The part where he pisses on the memory of the people who died there, or that not all of them were Jewish??? Do tell. I mean, after all, the people who stated that it happened, that they WITNESSED it, They were LYING???? DO TELL!! The American observers, that saw the ruined death chambers at Auschwitz after the SS dynamited them before fleeing before the Russian army, were somehow mistaken?? That the other death chambers at other camps are somehow not real, that the people who know what happened there, German Army or not, are somehow lying, or are they mistaken?? The people who told the American observers what they witnessed while interred there were somehow lying, or maybe experiencing mass hypnosis?? Tell me, have you never met someone with the tattoos on their arm? I have. Men, women, Jewish and non-Jewish, their only crime was they were not 'Aryan'. They have told me what they have seen, they have told me why we should never forget. I have looked in their eyes, and seen the horrors there. The article you have cited is SHIT and the mother-fucker who wrote it is a denier, an apologist for the National Socialist Party, may they burn in hell!!

[marnen.livejournal.com]

If you make further comments here, please do so in a more civil tone, or I will delete them. Also, please read what I actually wrote, and what the article I linked to actually contains. You're putting words in people's mouths.

[curlyeric.livejournal.com]

He is an asshat. It took all of about 3 minutes to find loads of documentation as to the use of, procedures for, testimonies of people involved, and why there is less documentation than other parts of the nazi regime. His "theory" does not explain any of the documentation that I found quickly and easily.

Info on operation of the gas chambers
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html

Chemical used
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B

Testimonies
http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocAusc2.htm

All in all his entire article reminds me of the anti-evolutionists that say an eye can not be evolved. While laying out documentation and theories that seem compelling to the uninformed, they do not stand up against even the smallest amount of scrutiny. While he claims not to be a revisionist, he is advancing revisionist causes by claiming a reasoned argument where no controversy exists in the historical community.

[marnen.livejournal.com]

Excellent; thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for (I didn't have a chance to do research before I posted, and today has been a busy day -- I was going to do this in the next day or two).

Assuming the references check out, these pretty well shoot Lyle Burkhard's argument all to hell.